1up Clan Forums
Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: oneinch on May 17, 2011, 12:34:14 PM
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I know that a lot of you are in college like I am, while others still plan to go to college. This documentary was released a short time ago and is very interesting; I am still not sure what to fully take of it. This video is about an hour long but I feel it is still worth watching and considering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE#ws)
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I am trying to look up where I saw this. But I swore I saw statistics that had average college grad salaries vs avg mutual fund interests and the results were the college grad only had more total income (school expenses are in there too) after 40 years.
Master's degrees don't pay off but some PHDs do. I am in a masters program because my school pretty much dropped you after graduation (and the point is to get a good steady job). Approach college as an "in" to a career not another stepping stone in life (my mistake, but I am rectifying).
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I just trying to get an Associates for Computer Information Systems so I could do a career change out of the culinary field, but now I am starting to wonder if there is even a point to it all? I have been trying for ever to get a job in the industry and can't even land the simplest of entry level positions. I have seriously been questioning if there is even going to be jobs when I get my degree because there really isn't any now. And what is going to happen when hyperinflation hits? I have been hearing a lot of talk about this and can't help see it as an inevitable end to our borrowing and spending well above our G.D.P and then printing money like crazy to cover that debt along with many other economic factors that have taken place in the last 100 years of American history. I have scarified many relationships and much of my life to get this degree, and now it seems like it was all for nothing. I have all kinds of certificates and training in the culinary field and I also have plenty of experience and knowledge with computers, yet I find it extremely difficult to land a job at Mc. Donalds. The same for entry level positions like a tier 1 tech support where all you do is diagnose problems with crappy outlook or some other crappy M.S. product. So it's like, whats the point any more?
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The video lost my vote at 55:00 lmao. That statement is cute.
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I am trying to look up where I saw this. But I swore I saw statistics that had average college grad salaries vs avg mutual fund interests and the results were the college grad only had more total income (school expenses are in there too) after 40 years.
Master's degrees don't pay off but some PHDs do. I am in a masters program because my school pretty much dropped you after graduation (and the point is to get a good steady job). Approach college as an "in" to a career not another stepping stone in life (my mistake, but I am rectifying).
I am just starting to go to college this summer, Community College offers fully online programs which I need for my work situation, a few days before I turn 30. I am doing this only as a means to make some positions where I am easier to obtain and therefore increase my pay. With only a high school diploma I am already earning more than most PHDs according to the government, so college has not proven a necessity for me to get into jobs that pay well, I am in fact earning more than many peers with degrees. That said, there are jobs and career paths that require degrees, and there are jobs that it is easier to obtain with a degree so just do what you feel you need to do to get what you want.
Also, i will not finance school. I am paying cash each semester, after I get out of CC and into a 4 year (should I go that route) I may change things, but I hate debt, so would rather save and pay a semester at a time or take less per semester than owe for years (still paying on my wife's student loans, 6 more years).
Just my $.02 and YMMV.
EDIT: I did not watch the video, just replying to Turban.
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in europ the study is free..(except uk, where private schools have more value than public), nd also we have the free medical health care system xD
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I have very less knowledge about degree level study in USA.. or how expensive it is . Well in UK its ridiculously expensive, especially for the students who are going to start from this year . Before 2011 Govt. had a fixed rate for majority of the university (luckily I fall into the previous law), now they have changed their law, university can charge as much as they want. (restricted to £10000). You can take student loan, then you will end up having a huge debt on your shoulder after you graduate. It will take you all your life to pay it off. I doubt any lower class or middle class family can afford their children to send to a university (unless they save for their kid from the day he/she born).
Having a degree is always good for your resume/cv . But most employer now looks for experience, even if you dont have a degree, but you have experience of working in that particular field, they will value you more. Training an employer is a big expense for any employee. But if you have degree and experience obviously you will have much more value. It also depends on which field you want to go, for example to be a doctor obviously you have to go through all the degrees and other advance studies. If you are too confuse about your future, choose what you want to do , and go to a career consultant, tell them your situation, its always wise to talk to someone more professional.
In Uk over 2.50 million people unemployed. Finding a job is soo hard and tough. Even with 1st class degree its still not easy to get a job. I just hope I can get into something after my graduation.
[note: I haven't watched the video, but I will try to watch when I get the time]
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I could really care less my college is paid in full in scholarships, I have an on campus job for spending money, im going into a career that is in the top 3 most needed until 2018. I have the knowledge to start my own business which I will when I work in my career for some time. This video doesn't bother me very much.
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Also, i will not finance school. I am paying cash each semester,
This is a good plan. This is what I am trying to do, but I have yet to be as fortunate with my job opportunities. Perhaps my move to CA will help me in a my TV and film job search. Again, only going from memory, the article was assuming that you had all the money you would have paid for a 4 year degree invested, and that you were going in debt to pay for school (so it starts out as an uphill battle).
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I could really care less my college is paid in full in scholarships, I have an on campus job for spending money, im going into a career that is in the top 3 most needed until 2018. I have the knowledge to start my own business which I will when I work in my career for some time. This video doesn't bother me very much.
well you r lucky. but here we're not talking about individual problems, we are talking about the system in general, which is wrong. and then it not sure that the luck u had also ur your children will have it, or ur brothers nd sisters, or cusins...
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in europ the study is free..(except uk, where private schools have more value than public), nd also we have the free medical health care system xD
Nothing is free. Someone is paying for it, and paying dearly.
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in europ the study is free..(except uk, where private schools have more value than public), nd also we have the free medical health care system xD
Nothing is free. Someone is paying for it, and paying dearly.
Of course the guy that quoted rush limbaugh in his signature would say this to the european system :D :D
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in europ the study is free..(except uk, where private schools have more value than public), nd also we have the free medical health care system xD
Nothing is free. Someone is paying for it, and paying dearly.
the Government pay, at the same time we pay the Government taxes.
the diffrent between us nd usa is that u pay taxes, Education, nd ur health care system...we just pay the taxes...nd our healthcare system is way better then urs..
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in europ the study is free..(except uk, where private schools have more value than public), nd also we have the free medical health care system xD
Nothing is free. Someone is paying for it, and paying dearly.
the Government pay, at the same time we pay the Government taxes.
the diffrent between us nd usa is that u pay taxes, Education, nd ur health care system...we just pay the taxes...nd our healthcare system is way better then urs..
I understand what your country does. Every citizen pays huge portions of their income to the government as taxes. The government then decides how best to give your money back to you. They provide your education, healthcare, etc... but all on their terms. They have total control over your life. And you continue to vote for your leaders simply because they continue this system. You figure "I payed into this, so I better get something out of it". But what if you weren't forced to pay into the system? Wouldn't that be better?
Maybe I'm just too independent. Maybe I've just seen way too much inefficiency, waste, fraud and abuse within government. But my standpoint is this: everyone should be able to keep as much of their money as possible. I want my taxes to be low so that if I want to buy my own healthcare or pay for my own education, I am able to. BUT if I choose not to spend MY money on these things, I have more of my own money to put in my bank account, buy a new truck, or buy a house.
Why should your government be the one to decide what is the best use of your money, and what you need? I personally think that those decisions are best left to each citizen.
@wargasm, love or hate Rush, but you cannot disagree with the quote. There is not one nation out there who's citizens are prosperous under high taxation. That's one of two major reasons why the USA was formed in the first place.
I also disagree that the common European healthcare system is better then what's privately available here, but that's a whole other can of worms.
ANYWAY, /rant. I don't want to start some big argument or debate, but I felt the need to get that off my chest. Sorry for taking this off course.
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in europ the study is free..(except uk, where private schools have more value than public), nd also we have the free medical health care system xD
Nothing is free. Someone is paying for it, and paying dearly.
the Government pay, at the same time we pay the Government taxes.
the diffrent between us nd usa is that u pay taxes, Education, nd ur health care system...we just pay the taxes...nd our healthcare system is way better then urs..
I understand what your country does. Every citizen pays huge portions of their income to the government as taxes. The government then decides how best to give your money back to you. They provide your education, healthcare, etc... but all on their terms. They have total control over your life. And you continue to vote for your leaders simply because they continue this system. You figure "I payed into this, so I better get something out of it". But what if you weren't forced to pay into the system? Wouldn't that be better?
Maybe I'm just too independent. Maybe I've just seen way too much inefficiency, waste, fraud and abuse within government. But my standpoint is this: everyone should be able to keep as much of their money as possible. I want my taxes to be low so that if I want to buy my own healthcare or pay for my own education, I am able to. BUT if I choose not to spend MY money on these things, I have more of my own money to put in my bank account, buy a new truck, or buy a house.
Why should your government be the one to decide what is the best use of your money, and what you need? I personally think that those decisions are best left to each citizen.
@wargasm, love or hate Rush, but you cannot disagree with the quote. There is not one nation out there who's citizens are prosperous under high taxation. That's one of two major reasons why the USA was formed in the first place.
I also disagree that the common European healthcare system is better then what's privately available here, but that's a whole other can of worms.
ANYWAY, /rant. I don't want to start some big argument or debate, but I felt the need to get that off my chest. Sorry for taking this off course.
the things u said ha no sence...
The fact is, paying taxes, Europeans receive generous support for families and individuals, and to have these services Americans need to pay big bucks. This includes quality health care for every person in exchange for a modest fee deducted from your paycheck. The average cost is about half what they pay Americans. While 47 million Americans have no health insurance, those who have it pay ever higher premiums. It's not all. In return for their taxes, Europeans also receive low-cost assistance for their children, a retirement decent, cheap or free university education, training and retraining for workers, paid time off for health reasons or family, many holidays, cheap vacation , elderly care, efficent public transport and more.
Americans who want to give their children an adequate education set aside nearly a thousand dollars for the college education of their children, and the majority of graduates have tens of thousands of dollars in debt. But the boys attend European or almost free university courses (by region). Assistance to children in the U.S. costs about $ 12,000 a year for a family of four. In Europe this figure is one-sixth that of America, and the quality is far superior. Millions of Americans are focusing as much as possible IRA (pension fund) and 401k (savings system for pensions), because the Social Security provides only half of their retirement income. Instead, the European pension system, more generous, give about 75-85% (depending on your country) income.
Private expenditure on social welfare of Americans is almost three times higher than the one that says every citizen in Europe, because Americans need to self-finance a significant percentage. Pay more in state and local taxes, property taxes and hidden fees such as $ 300 billion a year in federal tax breaks to companies that give health benefits to their employees. Summing up, the result is that Americans pay as Europeans, but receive much less.
so i prefer 2 pay taxes i need 2 have an education, i need 2 sleep properly thinking that some1 is taking care of me nd my family...nd i obviously dont need your so-called freedom...
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Wow. I have so much to say about all this, but I'm gonna bow out of this thing because I don't want to be the guy responsible for this thing getting out of hand. Before I become a spectator in this thread, I do want to make one last point. Stella, you keep speaking of assistance for family, etc. You say this as if citizens receiving government assistance is the norm. Why? If taxes were lower... if businesses and citizens paid fewer taxes, this assistance wouldn't even be required because each halfway intelligent working person would have money for what they needed.
I personally like being responsible for myself. To each their own, but at the end of the day, whether I'm rich or poor, I want it to be because of me, and not because some government official decides what I must do with my money.
Here in the USA, we're all (or at least we're supposed to be) free. Freedom means being free to do as we please and to succeed, but it also means that we're free to fail miserably. The stakes are high. That's the way it should be.
Your European system is fine I guess. Hey, it works for you and your family. But I disagree with it, and I definitely don't want it to come here. I am the creator of my own financial destiny, and thats the way I want it to stay.
I suppose I'll give my input on the topic at hand... College. My feeling is this: College is training. I think that you should only go to college if it's helpful with what you want to do with your life. For example, if you're interested in architecture, by all means, go to College. Or Law. Or medicine. Even Education. But if you don't know what you want to do, wait til you do know.
See, to me, a college degree is to a Lawyer what a TIG Certification is to a Welder. It's not necessary for the knowledge (anyone can study/practice on their own), but its necessary to prove to your clients or employers that you know what you're doing.
I see no purpose for getting a general studies degree. That's the scam that I see. We've become ingrained with the ideal that a college degree will make or break us, regardless if the degree is in the field that we end up working in or not. Not to mention the fact that some of the wealthiest, most successful people in the world have little or no college experience. Bottom line: you are the deciding factor to your own success, whether you have a degree or not.
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I see it in a different way, you are paying your taxes, which works fine with me, cos in return I do get a lot of other facilities.
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maddog it seems to me only that you do not have great ambitions in life or great expectations... Education is the cornerstone of a society...and it seems that more than 70% of the U.S. population is agree with me. your own people would like to have a decent education at low cost. if the government provides security does not mean that we are serfs, or we dont have freedom. nd whats freedom means 2 u...what u can do there that we can not..do we have less money bcz we pay taxes..do we do less things bcz we have to pay taxes? we can have a good education if we want...if someone wants us to do the carpenter, welder, the hairdresser etc.. the government provides free courses in which participants in addition to being followed step by step are also paid by the government..and whether to participate in these courses should they take the bus or public transportation, the government will reimburse the costs incurred.
so tell me...what u can do wid ur so called freedom that we can not do?
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Stella, I have low cost education available. I could go for free because I'm 1/16th Native American, but I don't want to accept Government assistance. I could also pay for it myself with zero assistance. I could go to a local highly regarded school for Architecture for less than $10,000USD/year. I could also go to Pepperdine University for Law on scholarship for almost nothing... and Pepperdine was around $40,000USD/year last I checked. I could also get a BA for less than $4000USD/year, but I already explained that I'm against General Studies degrees.
Why don't I get a degree? I CHOOSE not to. I know how to make as much or more money than most college graduates that are my age. I own everything I have. I have no debt at all. I accept zero Government assistance. And I live quite well. I'm not a millionaire, mind you, but I do well for myself and for my wife.
I have ambition. My ambition is to be a successful entrepreneur, and so far, I'm right on track. Don't put me or anyone else who chooses not to go to school in a box. Just because I choose a different path than you doesn't make me someone who is destined to fail.
Reread everything I've said here. I choose to live for myself and make my own choices in everything. This includes my money, my business, etc. What can I do with my freedom? Control every aspect of my financial life. I can choose to invest in what I want to. I can choose to pay cash at the Doctor's office instead of buying insurance. I can choose NOT to go to school, and instead use that money for something else. That's the way I like it, and I'll fight kicking and screaming if someone tries to change it. Pretty ambitious, right? ;)
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why you keep saying you do not want government h3elp...you walk the streets, in schools where you go, and whatever infrastructure is made by the government which uses money paid in taxes. then, directly or indirectly the government helps u. i am just saying we can do whatever u do...nd plus is govenment is giving us security. also we r selfe made people. govement help us bcz we pay for it...so we give 2 have something bk...universal rule
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You know what I'm saying Stella. Taxes are necessary because infrastructure, defense, public service (police and fire), the courts, and k-12 education are all necessary expenditures. What's not necessary is government interference in my healthcare, retirement, education, etc.
My dad is a former military person, as are several of my cousins, and as were two of my grandfathers (I have four... long story). My dad is currently a government employee (Professional Firefighter). He was also involved in local government. I personally know several of the local politicians in both the city and county levels. I also know several police officers and firefighters. I have been around the block a time or two. I know firsthand about the necessities of the average citizen, and what it takes to provide those... water, sewer, roads, storm drains, fire and police protection are all necessary on a local level. I know that Defense, national infrastructure, courts, etc are necessary on the national level. So believe me when I say that at least where I live, I know what I'm talking about. I have also studied US and World history, and my findings lead me to the conclusion that small Federal government is key. My political and economic views are not just opinions to me. They're principles that I live by, and I will not change them.
Believe what you want to. Live where you want to live. Love or hate your government. But don't take me to be some ignorant guys who's spouting off. I know what I'm talking about. So yes, tax me for what is necessary. But please, for the love of God, don't tax me so that you can force me and/or my neighbor to accept a service that we can provide for ourself.
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well just 2 let u know ur own people r unhappy about ur situation...have a general knowledge.. :p
btw um off...lil tired of..u'll never get it..
oh nd i respect ur opinion nd point of vew
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Maddog, the conservative idealism of not taxing or taxing very little benefits the rich and big businesses very disproportionately. Guess who lobbies for less taxes and less control over the people and business the most? Big businesses and conglomerates. Less government means business can do whatever the hell they want. Less taxes means they can maintain superiority over any beginners or those that did not start out advantageously.
Your quote from Rush Limbaugh is of course true, it is a huge blanket statement that does not really reflect what Rush Limbaugh really believes. What if I twisted his quote around and said, no great nation became prosperous without taxation?
To tell the truth it comes down to this. The people that are screwed by the system and the people need a hand are the ones that want more taxation. People that also care about those people that are disadvantaged also support higher taxes for education because they know it is not fair that the failures of your parents be brought down upon you. Those that believe that society is fair as it is and/or are benefiting from the system the most (corporations, the wealthy) of course want lower taxation. While you may not be either of those Maddog(I have no idea), you probably believe or have been told your whole life that if you fail, it isn't the system, it is either because you haven't worked hard enough or you were unlucky. Now who the **** do you think that saying benefits? Those that are at the high of the status quo.
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Maddog, the conservative idealism of not taxing or taxing very little benefits the rich and big businesses very disproportionately. Guess who lobbies for less taxes and less control over the people and business the most? Big businesses and conglomerates. Less government means business can do whatever the hell they want. Less taxes means they can maintain superiority over any beginners or those that did not start out advantageously.
Your quote from Rush Limbaugh is of course true, it is a huge blanket statement that does not really reflect what Rush Limbaugh really believes. What if I twisted his quote around and said, no great nation became prosperous without taxation?
To tell the truth it comes down to this. The people that are screwed by the system and the people need a hand are the ones that want more taxation. People that also care about those people that are disadvantaged also support higher taxes for education because they know it is not fair that the failures of your parents be brought down upon you. Those that believe that society is fair as it is and/or are benefiting from the system the most (corporations, the wealthy) of course want lower taxation. While you may not be either of those Maddog(I have no idea), you probably believe or have been told your whole life that if you fail, it isn't the system, it is either because you haven't worked hard enough or you were unlucky. Now who the **** do you think that saying benefits? Those that are at the high of the status quo.
You speak of the rich with such disdain, when the fact of the matter is that they've become rich by working their ass off under extreme taxation (50% and sometimes more depending on their business setup). Why should they be taxed even more, especially when those taxes pay for someone to sit on their ass doing nothing? Here is a FACT. The top 5% of wage earners pay 53.25% of the total taxes in the US. How about one that hits a little closer to our pay grade. The to 50% of people in this country pay over 96% of the taxes. Talk about disproportionate tax rates! Half of us are paying the taxes of the other half!
When people want to raise taxes, the general idea is "well, the rich can afford it. Take it from them". Problem is, the rich people worked hard for what they have, and they don't want to give any more of it up. So what happens? They downsize, and in so doing, cause job losses among the working class.
I experienced this on a small scale back in 2006. I was working for a tech company, and for a while, we were getting overtime on a regular basis. I noticed that on a moderate week when I would have only a few hours of overtime, my check would actually be slightly less than if I had no overtime at all. Why? Because those few hours jumped me up into the next tax bracket. The same thing is happening now with wealthy individuals. Under heavy taxation, they either expand and increase their income by a lot, or they take it easy and work a bit less so that they drop down a level on the tax scale.
My point is that there is zero need for additional taxes in the first place. Taxes should be cut so that you, me and the filthy rich guy across town get to keep more of our own money. Sure, some entitlement programs would have to be cut, but if taxes are cut and reworked properly, much of the "need" for these programs would disappear.
FWIW, my ideal solution would be zero income tax. 20-25% sales tax for everyone on everything except for groceries. Then when the government budget is balanced, maybe that number could drop to 18%. Doesn't equal, fair taxation make the most sense? Everyone would have to carry the load equally... rich, poor, illegal immigrants, tourists, etc... everyone who uses government in some capacity would have to pay for it. No one would be able to cheat on their taxes. Naturally, the wealthy would still pay most of the taxes because (duh) they buy more stuff. And the extremely poor individuals would pay very little because food still wouldn't be taxed. But a flat tax would solve a lot of issues... AND it would shrink or eliminate the IRS. Now there's a big expense off the federal budget!
And to answer your question, I'm not a wealthy individual. Nor am I poor. I grew up in an average single-earner household (dad worked at the fire station and mom stayed home). We lived in a fixer-upper house that cost $37,000. We always had used cars. We never had a nice TV, and we didn't even have a modern computer until 2000. Since being on my own (2007), I've been flat broke many times, but as an entrepreneur, that's pretty much par for the course... and guess what? Every time I've been broke, its been my fault. Really! Don't give me that crap about people being unable to do for themselves. This is a huge societal issue. Everyone wants to blame someone else for their own failures. No one wants to take responsibilities for their own actions.
What's wrong with everyone being responsible for themselves? Maybe I have more faith in people than you do. I believe that everyone has the ability to be successful in some capacity. Why do you insist that they don't?
No matter the crappy situation, there is always a way through it, even for those that grow up extremely disadvantaged. Getting to a better place is rarely easy, but then again, nothing really worthwhile ever is.
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Maddog seems to me that you live in the fairy tale world where it is easy to enrich...if everything u say was true nd was so easy getting to a better place even for those that grow up extremely disadvantagedthere would be no poor desperate people...
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IMO, this is going to get out of hand soon. Lock?
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Maddog seems to me that you live in the fairy tale world where it is easy to enrich...if everything u say was true nd was so easy getting to a better place even for those that grow up extremely disadvantagedthere would be no poor desperate people...
Stella YOU are the one living in the fairy tale world, do you honestly believe that? I thought you were intelligent...
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I think EVERYONE is living in a fairy tail world. Just STFU and keep on living. It's OBVIOUS neither one of you shall change the others views so this is pretty much akin to an atheist arguing with a religious person. NOBODY WINS. No matter what. Just shut the hell up and move on.
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No one wants to take responsibilities for their own actions.
Right on.
US
Land of the free!
Free to succeed
Free to fail
That is empowering and motivational.
If you take away the freedom to fail by being completely taken care of,
Then you take away motivation to be something, to succeed, to contribute to society
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The top 5% of wage earners pay 53.25% of the total taxes in the US. How about one that hits a little closer to our pay grade. The to 50% of people in this country pay over 96% of the taxes. Talk about disproportionate tax rates! Half of us are paying the taxes of the other half!
This at least, is true.
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\
Right on.
US
Land of the free!
Free to succeed
Free to fail
I love America, I love capitalism, I love the Constitution, let me just get that out there first and foremost. But America is far from being free anymore and our current form of government is far from being in line with the Constitution. FBI, CIA, IRS, DHS, etc, etc, All of them are unconstitutional and all of them are nothing but thugs. We have one of the most gangster government ever.
The reason our education sucks is not because we have to pay out of pocket for college but because our lovely government dictates what can and can not be taught/said in the class room. For example, take the theory of evolution. Practically all Americas that go through any form of public education system hear that evolution is fact, etc. But what you don't know is that evolution is far from being a proven theory, evidences they give in the text books were long ago proven wrong, and some even down right fraudulent, yet they still remain in the text books and are taught as fact. This is because our lovely state governments is passing, and in some places already passed, legislation to make it illegal to say anything negative about evolution or attempt to teach anything but evolution. And where this legislation is not passed a teacher will be force out of her position by the teacher unions. Our education system sucks because it is nothing but indoctrination teaching Americans how to be drooling, mumbling idiots incapable of understanding how to tie ones shoe lace and how to be good citizens and trust your gubberment, NOT because we have to pay for college out of our own pockets.
Our government is down right gangster and criminal and virtually takes little notice of the U.S. Constitution.
for example:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/18/eighty-four-year-old-man-allegedly-beaten-by-police-officer-after-calling-911/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/18/eighty-four-year-old-man-allegedly-beaten-by-police-officer-after-calling-911/)
http://www.redstate.com/sjkohut/2010/03/23/mccains-s3081-strips-americans-of-their-5th-and-6th-amendment-rights/ (http://www.redstate.com/sjkohut/2010/03/23/mccains-s3081-strips-americans-of-their-5th-and-6th-amendment-rights/)
http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/ViewNews/House_Prepares_to_Give_President_Authority_to_Wage_Worldwide_War_Forever_110518 (http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/ViewNews/House_Prepares_to_Give_President_Authority_to_Wage_Worldwide_War_Forever_110518)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b93UJF4JlZ8&feature=feedu# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b93UJF4JlZ8&feature=feedu#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6OPs-URX7U#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6OPs-URX7U#ws)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWnNV7xqC-o#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWnNV7xqC-o#ws)
Okay, I am done for now, I am sleepy and it is way past my bed time.
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Maddog, the conservative idealism of not taxing or taxing very little benefits the rich and big businesses very disproportionately. Guess who lobbies for less taxes and less control over the people and business the most? Big businesses and conglomerates. Less government means business can do whatever the hell they want. Less taxes means they can maintain superiority over any beginners or those that did not start out advantageously.
Your quote from Rush Limbaugh is of course true, it is a huge blanket statement that does not really reflect what Rush Limbaugh really believes. What if I twisted his quote around and said, no great nation became prosperous without taxation?
To tell the truth it comes down to this. The people that are screwed by the system and the people need a hand are the ones that want more taxation. People that also care about those people that are disadvantaged also support higher taxes for education because they know it is not fair that the failures of your parents be brought down upon you. Those that believe that society is fair as it is and/or are benefiting from the system the most (corporations, the wealthy) of course want lower taxation. While you may not be either of those Maddog(I have no idea), you probably believe or have been told your whole life that if you fail, it isn't the system, it is either because you haven't worked hard enough or you were unlucky. Now who the **** do you think that saying benefits? Those that are at the high of the status quo.
You speak of the rich with such disdain, when the fact of the matter is that they've become rich by working their ass off under extreme taxation (50% and sometimes more depending on their business setup). Why should they be taxed even more, especially when those taxes pay for someone to sit on their ass doing nothing? Here is a FACT. The top 5% of wage earners pay 53.25% of the total taxes in the US. How about one that hits a little closer to our pay grade. The to 50% of people in this country pay over 96% of the taxes. Talk about disproportionate tax rates! Half of us are paying the taxes of the other half!
When people want to raise taxes, the general idea is "well, the rich can afford it. Take it from them". Problem is, the rich people worked hard for what they have, and they don't want to give any more of it up. So what happens? They downsize, and in so doing, cause job losses among the working class.
I experienced this on a small scale back in 2006. I was working for a tech company, and for a while, we were getting overtime on a regular basis. I noticed that on a moderate week when I would have only a few hours of overtime, my check would actually be slightly less than if I had no overtime at all. Why? Because those few hours jumped me up into the next tax bracket. The same thing is happening now with wealthy individuals. Under heavy taxation, they either expand and increase their income by a lot, or they take it easy and work a bit less so that they drop down a level on the tax scale.
My point is that there is zero need for additional taxes in the first place. Taxes should be cut so that you, me and the filthy rich guy across town get to keep more of our own money. Sure, some entitlement programs would have to be cut, but if taxes are cut and reworked properly, much of the "need" for these programs would disappear.
FWIW, my ideal solution would be zero income tax. 20-25% sales tax for everyone on everything except for groceries. Then when the government budget is balanced, maybe that number could drop to 18%. Doesn't equal, fair taxation make the most sense? Everyone would have to carry the load equally... rich, poor, illegal immigrants, tourists, etc... everyone who uses government in some capacity would have to pay for it. No one would be able to cheat on their taxes. Naturally, the wealthy would still pay most of the taxes because (duh) they buy more stuff. And the extremely poor individuals would pay very little because food still wouldn't be taxed. But a flat tax would solve a lot of issues... AND it would shrink or eliminate the IRS. Now there's a big expense off the federal budget!
And to answer your question, I'm not a wealthy individual. Nor am I poor. I grew up in an average single-earner household (dad worked at the fire station and mom stayed home). We lived in a fixer-upper house that cost $37,000. We always had used cars. We never had a nice TV, and we didn't even have a modern computer until 2000. Since being on my own (2007), I've been flat broke many times, but as an entrepreneur, that's pretty much par for the course... and guess what? Every time I've been broke, its been my fault. Really! Don't give me that crap about people being unable to do for themselves. This is a huge societal issue. Everyone wants to blame someone else for their own failures. No one wants to take responsibilities for their own actions.
What's wrong with everyone being responsible for themselves? Maybe I have more faith in people than you do. I believe that everyone has the ability to be successful in some capacity. Why do you insist that they don't?
No matter the crappy situation, there is always a way through it, even for those that grow up extremely disadvantaged. Getting to a better place is rarely easy, but then again, nothing really worthwhile ever is.
I really don't speak of the rich in such disdain. Your statistics for the amount each bracket is paying in terms of taxes may be right. But they also represent how much people make as well. If the top 1 % is paying 35% of the taxes, think about the wage disparity. And you really don't support the government helping kids with no means to attend college? Really? Since when should the financial success of your parents dictate your future education? BTW you probably pulled all your statistics from the NTU or some other Right-wing "non-partisan" organization, because they don't give you half the facts you are saying. The government should be there to help those that are in need of help, as well as provide oversight of those with a disproportionate amount of power. If it was your way, the rich would forever be rich, hoarding their savings with family lines and owning this country. The little guy would never have a chance. I am not some freeloader either, I come from a well to do family surrounded by rich kids who will probably inherit their parent's businesses and never have to work for a cent in their life. I earned a full scholar ship to the university I attend and work my ass off. But apparently you believe sympathy for those that are not as fortunate as themselves is something that we shouldn't do as a collective. I say that we should watch out for those that need a hand, that we should stand for those that cannot stand for themselves and teach them how to manage their lives. Whatever man, atleast we can agree to disagree on how us humans should interact.
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Oh, and for the record here is a statistic with cited evidence on how much americans actually do pay for taxes.
"Middle-class households that earned between $34,300 and $141,900 paid 50.5 percent of all federal tax revenues in 2007"
Not the top 1%. Read and go through all the evidence before disagreeing with what I post. Your statistics had no citations, I had to go look through a myriad of partisan and non partisan data to find Maddog's numbers.
http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094 (http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094)
Btw those research numbers were provided by the CBO or the Congressional Budget Office, a federal agency not some partisan research org. Let's debate shall we?
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Maddog seems to me that you live in the fairy tale world where it is easy to enrich...if everything u say was true nd was so easy getting to a better place even for those that grow up extremely disadvantagedthere would be no poor desperate people...
Stella YOU are the one living in the fairy tale world, do you honestly believe that? I thought you were intelligent...
i live in rwality..and I consider myself intelligent until proven otherwise..express an opinion or thought or reality doesent mean 2 not to be intelligent...nd i dont think that anyone is not intelligente..
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In the US a problem we have is the people demanding healthcare provided are among the percentage that don't pay a dime or get more money than they paid in via Earned Income Credits. That's just plain wrong.
I get most of what I pay back.. Im not wealthy.. But Im for smaller government and flat taxes.. I look up to the
Rich people.. A majority of them worked hard to get there.. it takes discipline to get there.. Most Americans could be millionaires in their lifetime with a little saving. They could be those "Mean old rich people" :P but they choose to spend it
to make you think their wealthy. :P
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Oh, and for the record here is a statistic with cited evidence on how much americans actually do pay for taxes.
"Middle-class households that earned between $34,300 and $141,900 paid 50.5 percent of all federal tax revenues in 2007"
Not the top 1%. Read and go through all the evidence before disagreeing with what I post. Your statistics had no citations, I had to go look through a myriad of partisan and non partisan data to find Maddog's numbers.
http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094 (http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094)
Btw those research numbers were provided by the CBO or the Congressional Budget Office, a federal agency not some partisan research org. Let's debate shall we?
Just to say
This data is not current
http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094 (http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094)
Sunday, June 20, 2010 was almost a year ago.
idk if that changes anything :/
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Oh, and for the record here is a statistic with cited evidence on how much americans actually do pay for taxes.
"Middle-class households that earned between $34,300 and $141,900 paid 50.5 percent of all federal tax revenues in 2007"
Not the top 1%. Read and go through all the evidence before disagreeing with what I post. Your statistics had no citations, I had to go look through a myriad of partisan and non partisan data to find Maddog's numbers.
http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094 (http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094)
Btw those research numbers were provided by the CBO or the Congressional Budget Office, a federal agency not some partisan research org. Let's debate shall we?
Just to say
This data is not current
http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094 (http://www.cnsnews.com/node/68094)
Sunday, June 20, 2010 was almost a year ago.
idk if that changes anything :/
Actually it was even further back than that. If you read it, the data was compiled in 2007. However, house hold contributions rarely change drastically, especially over a 4 year period so the data is still relevant.