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Discussions => Admin Announcements => 1up Cup => Topic started by: Shans on December 22, 2009, 03:30:24 PM

Title: Next Tournament..
Post by: Shans on December 22, 2009, 03:30:24 PM
If we have another Cup can we make it password protected this time? It just makes it a lot fairer so some random guy doesn't come in and ruin ur stats. You could just like PM the password to whoever registers.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: 3k_dot on December 22, 2009, 03:39:33 PM
i think thats a great idea shans!  :D
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: Zhalix[1up] on December 22, 2009, 03:42:18 PM
We may change how we do the next tournament, but I want to respond to this notion that the previous tournaments were somehow unfair.

We haven't had a password all this time on purpose.  The tournaments were intended from the start to allow anyone to join in and play.  Your stats are not being ruined by playing with these people, they're being made to be exactly as they should be. 
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: RonaldLee[1up] on December 22, 2009, 03:45:52 PM
The purpose of these tournaments is to attract the public players to 1up servers, not so we can shut out the public.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: FedoraMike on December 22, 2009, 04:08:19 PM
We may change how we do the next tournament, but I want to respond to this notion that the previous tournaments were somehow unfair.

We haven't had a password all this time on purpose.  The tournaments were intended from the start to allow anyone to join in and play.  Your starts are not being ruined by playing with these people, they're being made to be exactly as they should be. 

I understand that notion, and I agree with you, that's how it was meant to be from the beginning.  What really needs to be looked at is whether that is the right way to do it or not, I know I've been pulling for a password since before the first tourney, at least for the A league...in the A league tournament, you are getting higher caliber players that are expecting a real competition, this should be passworded even if none of the other servers are.

Saying it doesn't ruin the stats is just silly.  I'm sorry, but if you are telling me that having GoogleIt run around with knives and nades in the A League server blowing himself and teammates up isn't ruining the stats then I must really not understand the stats.  He makes himself an easy target giving the players opposite him easy kills and he kills his teammates hurting their score as well.  I believe he was even asked to leave by one of the competitors on his team because he was just screwing around and hurting the score.  His response was to switch to the other team and continue doing it...

If that's the case, why have tournament signups and registration, why not just run it, whoever is on the servers during that time is entered.  And also, you send higher caliber players into the A League tourney, kicking them out of the lower ladders, but you don't do the same the other way?  Shouldn't B League players be moved down to the B league if A League players are moved up to the A League?  Not saying I'm a great player, but I was holding my own in the A league well enough and wanted to be there, that's why I signed up in that league.  If players are there only to screw around that needs to be dealt with IMO...

Now I don't mean to single out Google, this goes for anyone that randomly joins the server.  It's easy to be frustrated playing against players of that caliber and players could easily resort to doing things mentioned above thus skewing the stats...  Shuffles would have also been nice, that affected the stats as well when the teams were obviously uneven skill wise.

All I'm saying is that if you really want an "A League" quality tournament with true competition, it needs to be at least a little exclusive otherwise it will never really be fair to the players signing up.  Granted, civil will still win pretty much everytime :P

And I know in either the B or C league stats I saw my old friend Madbadger, one of the most notorious teamkillers in UrT, and that made me laugh a bit :P
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: Zhalix[1up] on December 22, 2009, 04:35:14 PM
Quote
What really needs to be looked at is whether that is the right way to do it or not, I know I've been pulling for a password since before the first tourney, at least for the A league...in the A league tournament, you are getting higher caliber players that are expecting a real competition, this should be passworded even if none of the other servers are.
I don't see a point in giving A League a password just because they're expecting high-level competition.  Instead of altering the tournament to go against its original purpose, the clear solution is that high-level players should simply not expect to fight only high-level players.

If we were going to do a password, every league would get it.  It doesn't make sense that only good players would get one.


Quote
Saying it doesn't ruin the stats is just silly.
Yes, GoogleIt running around with a knife ruins the stats.  However, that's not what I was talking about.  I'm talking about the vast majority of random players that do come in to seriously play.  They're not ruining anything, they're intended variables.

Now on the matter of people who run around with a knife: next tournament, if I see anyone ****ing around, they will be kicked promptly with no warning.


Quote
If that's the case, why have tournament signups and registration, why not just run it, whoever is on the servers during that time is entered.
We have registration for several reasons.  The most obvious of which is we need to know that the winner is actually someone who even cares about the tournament.


Quote
And also, you send higher caliber players into the A League tourney, kicking them out of the lower ladders, but you don't do the same the other way?  Shouldn't B League players be moved down to the B league if A League players are moved up to the A League?
You're allowed to register for a league appropriate for your skill level or higher.  You are not allowed to register in a lower league than what is appropriate for your skill level.  However GoogleIt playing on the A League server when he's registered for B is a different matter altogether.  When you play on a different league server, you're just like a player that is not registered for the tournament at all.  You will not be forced to leave just because your skill level doesn't match the league on the server.


Quote
Shuffles would have also been nice, that affected the stats as well when the teams were obviously uneven skill wise.
I would have liked to, but I've been forbidden from doing so.  Apparently it can crash a server.


Quote
All I'm saying is that if you really want an "A League" quality tournament with true competition, it needs to be at least a little exclusive otherwise it will never really be fair to the players signing up.
I don't think it's a matter of fairness.  I also think our tournaments are just fine in terms of quality.

Plenty of people sign up and have a good time.   If that stops being the case we might make some big changes, but right now it just seems unnecessary.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: beast on December 22, 2009, 05:46:51 PM
For the A divisions I would like to see a different server used. Us "pro" players are very picky about our hits and such.

T has a dedicated server with great hits and I know VeX has an amazing one. I am sure either clan would be willing to loan it for a few hours.


I don't mind the format at all. It is very different than most tournaments. However I would like to see the shuffleteams command in the mapcycle:

Code: [Select]
mapcycle.txt


shuffleteams
ut4_abbey
shuffleteams
ut4_casa

and so on.
That way there cannot be team stacking or more 'noobs' on one team versus another. There were often times this year when 3/5 of the good players were on one team. Leaving it looking like this


Red team                             Blue team
pro                                             pro
pro                                             pro
pro                                             noob
noob                                          noob
noob                                          noob
                                                  noob

This allowed the stacked teams to get more kills off the noobs. Now this only happened like 1-2 maps and I usually played against the stacked team so I could practice more. But there needs to be either an automatic autobalance or something like that to keep teams more even. OR even better would have the spectator admin to balance the teams manually.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: RonaldLee[1up] on December 22, 2009, 05:50:10 PM
There is a bug in the shuffleteams command which causes servers to crash every now and then. I hate to have a server crash during a tournament, which would be quite an embarrassment.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: Zhalix[1up] on December 22, 2009, 06:00:44 PM
I think it would be fine if it shuffled teams at the end/start of every map.  I could also try to manually balance the teams better.  I did do a couple forceteams in this last tournament but for the most part I just left them as they were.  There were a few rounds that could have really benefited from some forceteaming though.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: RonaldLee[1up] on December 22, 2009, 06:12:17 PM
I think it would be fine if it shuffled teams at the end/start of every map.  I could also try to manually balance the teams better.  I did do a couple forceteams in this last tournament but for the most part I just left them as they were.  There were a few rounds that could have really benefited from some forceteaming though.

I am hoping for an updated io with a cvar to correct shuffle problems. Then we will add that command to the mod.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: UnknownKilla on December 22, 2009, 08:54:17 PM
I think it would be fine if it shuffled teams at the end/start of every map.  I could also try to manually balance the teams better.  I did do a couple forceteams in this last tournament but for the most part I just left them as they were.  There were a few rounds that could have really benefited from some forceteaming though.

yea. back when i had my own personal server running for friends or who ever joined the server it would crash every once and a while because i shuffled the teams cause i hate it when there are stacked teams. im not a pro and im not a noob but when when there are pros on one teams and noobs on the other. its rather an annoyance.

I am hoping for an updated io with a cvar to correct shuffle problems. Then we will add that command to the mod.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: Shans on December 23, 2009, 06:32:18 PM
Well, if not password protected, could you make it so that if a random person connects: If you die from them it doesnt count as a death, and if you kill them it doesn't count as a kill. Only people that are registered.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: FedoraMike on December 23, 2009, 06:36:58 PM
Well, if not password protected, could you make it so that if a random person connects: If you die from them it doesnt count as a death, and if you kill them it doesn't count as a kill. Only people that are registered.

I don't think that's really an issue, if a random person connects and actually plays (regardless of skill) it doesn't really effect the stats as long as teams are fairly balanced.  It's when players aren't taking things seriously that it effects the outcome...
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: Shadow[1up] on December 23, 2009, 06:39:14 PM
ya that woud be fine or just let them on the spec sow thay can see and put a big txt on evry 15 min for next time you wane join the cup apply on the 1 up side
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: civil on December 23, 2009, 07:49:56 PM
Take no offense to this, but I personally like the open servers during tourney play. It adds another variable to it. I'm not sure if it's your method of adding the scores, or that it hasn't happened yet. But the kill/death ratio's could get really messed up with stacked teams, or even one good player in one of the lower tear servers. The password server idea is not to bad for the B/C groups from my point of view. They usually have enough competition and are very close in skill level. If you passworded though's 2 servers I think scores would be a little better perhaps. The A league though struggles to have competitors join, and leaving it open is a good challenge for the players that claim A league skill for the tourney. Keeping it open can definitely help keep the competitors around so things change with different people in the server from time to time. It gets boring to a lot of players seeing the same thing over and over.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: merkymerc on December 24, 2009, 03:44:16 AM
The open server was fine for the player turn out we had.  I do favor locking it in the future though, but only in the rare chance that a ton of UrT's "top" players sign up, show up, and stick through the whole tourney. If players start leaving before the match is done, open it up. I just think that'd be a pretty interesting game. But that is probably not going to happen, and I don't mind. After all, it is a free for all in a TDM setting, just have fun with it and not worry about who is fragging who. My 2 copper pieces.  8)

EDIT:
The only real issue with the open servers is when people join up to randomly teamkill. I don't care if people that didn't sign up join the match, or if "noobs" join the match; as long as they are there to play the game, it's all good.

One other thing, what happens if someone that isn't signed up for the tourney joins the game and ends up scoring better than everyone who did sign up?
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: SnKQuaKe on December 24, 2009, 06:53:24 AM
I think it makes alot of sense to push a C cup winner into B league and a B cup winner into A league for next tournament.

Money isn't everything what about a Hall of Fame page on the website we can earn ourselves onto.

1on1 tournament would be fun

5 or 3 man team tournaments



Im guessing even thor destroying me in B league before he was bumped to A didnt really change the outcome too much. Everyone feels cheated but in the end its up to us and our skills to overcome.


Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: civil on December 24, 2009, 08:25:26 AM
I think it makes alot of sense to push a C cup winner into B league and a B cup winner into A league for next tournament.

I like this idea :)
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: IlanGraveShootEmUp on December 27, 2009, 05:24:44 PM
This was my post from the other thread and I think it is applicable here:

"Zhalix and I were in spec for some of it (I had to leave after a little while), and it's clear that next time we should do better to make sure the teams are even.  I think that as people join the server, the admins in spec should look at the scores and adjust the teams so that each has approximately the same quality.  This would not only even the teams in numbers, but in quality as well. 

For instance, the top two scorers would be placed on opposite teams. If there is a third player who is not far behind the top two in terms of score, he could be placed on the team with the second place player.  The fourth and fifth place players could then be added to the team with the first place player, and it goes on from there, I think you get the idea.  This would only need to be done once or twice per game, at the most. 

This would be better than the current system, which relies on the players themselves to balance the teams.  It would also take care of "Noob Entrance Phenomena," where noobies join the server, get killed by civil 16 times, and with 0 kills and 16 deaths, decide to leave.  If they start to give too many "free" kills to one team, we analyze the quality of each team, and compensate.  Overall, I think this would make a noticeable difference in terms of fairness.

Another thing to consider: no friendly fire.  If it were just civil, beast, merky, thor, khali, etc. then I would say FF is essential.  But, with so many noobies and tk'ers coming in and out of the game, this could cause problems and ruin peoples scores.  Just some things to consider."




After hearing what everyone has to say about the tournament, I would like to expand upon my previous post by giving my input.

In keeping with the original idea for the tournament, I would like to see the servers remain open. This is, after all, a TDM tourney, and half the fun of playing TDM is the non-stop action provided by having a lot of players.  Having players of lesser quality join the server is not a problem at all, in fact it is essential for the TDM tournament experience. 

Of course, if we let public players come into the server then we need to be diligent in keeping the teams fair.  My other post was an attempt to show how this could be done.  It's simple: if we have a couple admins in spec monitoring the server, and talking to each other on ventrilo, they can make proper adjustments to the teams (forceteam) to ensure they are fair and balanced.  The adjustments could happen in response to various events: someone joins the server, a certain amount of time has elapsed, the kills reach a certain number, map change, etc.  Whatever the event is, the admins would be provided with a set of guidelines to follow when evening the teams.  Ultimately, however, they would have to use their own judgement.  In the hands of the wrong admins this could create a bias, but we are not *******s and we want it to be as fair as possible. 8)

In addition to balancing the teams, these admins would also perform their normal rule enforcing duties, like kicking tk'ers, asshats, cheaters, etc.  I am interested in finding out what everyone thinks about turning friendly fire off.  There are some definite benefits of turning off FF, but there are also drawbacks.  If we allow public players--many of which will be noobs--to play on the server, we will face problems of teamkilling and teamwounding (both intentional and unintentional).  Turning off FF would solve these problems.  The downside: kill stealing.  Say you are battling DiggyGraves[1up], and you manage to get past his fierce Mp5k, and you are going to finish him off with style by knifing his ass. You've worked hard to get to this point, and right as you are about to give him the last slash of your knife, NOOB_G36 hits him with 1 bullet from across the map--with his scoped, and spamming, G36.  Without FF this all too common.  So, which would you rather have? Teammates stealing your kills, or teammates tk'ing you?

I think it's good that we are having discussion like this.  This is only the second TDM tourney that we've done, and while it is important that we are true to the originally plan for the tournament, we must recognize that there are many ways in which we can improve and perfect it.  Hopefully, by the time the 1up April Fools Cup rolls around we will have a system that is fair to everyone.  It all starts with feedback--from the people who actually played in it.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: kamikaze on February 15, 2010, 07:19:32 AM
I think it makes alot of sense to push a C cup winner into B league and a B cup winner into A league for next tournament.

I like this idea :)

Lets put you into the AA league. And then surround you by the best UrT players available lol Sounds fair to me xD
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: $@t@n on May 06, 2010, 10:37:57 AM
when is the next 1up cup?
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: Venom on May 06, 2010, 04:24:23 PM
when is the next 1up cup?

you dont have to knw, its for the sexy people only ::)
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: $@t@n on May 07, 2010, 11:40:39 AM
well venom dont exclude urself then...
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: Venom on May 08, 2010, 01:32:27 PM
i didnt say i was sexy and btw when is the next tournaament
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: RonaldLee[1up] on May 08, 2010, 01:49:21 PM
i didnt say i was sexy and btw when is the next tournaament

I have some major bills to knock out, and our servers are established, so I would be adding servers for tournament play, which would happen after I resolve current financial obligations. Soon, though, I hope.
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: Shans on May 08, 2010, 08:57:29 PM
Can't wait  :D
Title: Re: Next Tournament..
Post by: $@t@n on May 09, 2010, 01:38:15 PM
thx ron! =D